Kevin Smith Interview

Writer-director Kevin Smith has brought us such quirky originals as Clerks, Dogma, and Chasing Amy.  His latest film is about lifelong platonic friends Zack and Miri, who attempt to solve their money problems by making an X-rated film together — only to find they might have more feelings for each other than previously thought.

Izumi Hasegawa sits down with Kevin at the Four Seasons Hotel in Beverly Hills and gets the inside story for Buzzine.

Izumi Hasegawa: Is this like a lifelong dream of yours, to make a porno movie but not really?

Kevin Smith: No, but I will say that I’ve been researching it since I was 12 years old, sometimes three or four times a day. I just came from lunch — I was still researching the movie. But no, I never dreamed about making it, but it does seem like the logical conclusion of all the movies we’ve made so far in which we talked about sex, and finally we actually show you what sex can look like. Not a very honest representation, though.

IH: Why is it not an honest representation?

KS: Because if you’re going to make a movie with “porno” in the title, you have to show porno sex, which is ridiculous to begin with because I don’t know anybody who does 26 positions in 10 minutes. I can barely do one, and that’s me just laying there letting shit happen to me, so for us, in order to lampoon porn, you’ve got to go over-the-top and make it even bigger than normal.

IH: So why not call the film “Starfucks”?

KS: I was all for that. You’ll never get an argument out of me, but as we saw, based on the fact that it’s tough to promote Zack and Miri Make a Porno, I don’t know that “Starfucks” would have been much easier for us to promote. It certainly would have been more memorable, though.

IH: Can you give us your take on the whole promotional nightmare, from getting the R rating to what happened to the headshot poster?

KS: It’s been strange. I knew going in there were a bunch of people who were going to be turned off by the title, but I was okay with it because those people were never going to go see this movie anyway, no matter what we called it — even if it was “A Room with a View,” they’re probably still not going, once they hear about what it’s about. So I felt like, even though the title drove some people away, it would definitely bring people in who had that sense of humor, who are inclined to find that type of thing funny. The MPA thing, I can’t say I was shocked but I was a little surprised that we had to jump through as many hoops as we did. My argument to them when I did the appeals screening was like, “You don’t make a movie with the word “porno” in the title not expecting to come under extra close scrutiny when it comes time to rate the movie. And as such, we made sure that everything we did fit safely within the confines of the R-rated movie, albeit a hard R-rated movie.” They gave us the NC-17. I tried to work with them. I tried to trim to get to the R, they kicked it back, I trimmed a little more, they kicked it back. At that point, I was like, “I’m not comfortable going any further. I’d like to take it to the appeals process.” At that point, I put everything in the movie that I wanted to because it was the last bite of the apple you’re going to have, and that’s the one we were able to flip. So at that point, I was like, “Right on. We won; it looks like it’s going to work out.” I forgot that they then had to rate all our materials after the movie, including our marketing materials, especially the poster, and that was very difficult because every poster we submitted got kicked back for being too salacious or too risque. Finally, we got to a point where the last poster we submitted was the one that they’re using up in Canada with the actual faces. After that, we were just kind of like hands in the air, what to do, and necessity became the mother of invention and we came up with the stick figures instead, because we were like, “Nothing could be more innocuous than this. There’s no way that they can accuse us of being salacious with these stick figures.” And they totally forgot about the word “porno,” which apparently some people still have a hard time with. If the movie had been called “Zack and Miri Fuck Hard,” I’d get it. I’d get it if somebody’s like, “We don’t want to put that on a billboard.” But “porno”? There’s an objection to a term — that’s not even like necessarily salacious in and of itself.

IH: Apparently parents don’t want to explain the word to their children.

KS: Which I find ridiculous. I’m a parent, I’ve got a nine-year-old, and granted I’m a little biased because I’m way more liberal with my kid than maybe most people are. I don’t feel the need to govern my language around the kid. I don’t run up to her and scream “cock-sucker” in her face, but if I’m talking about something and “fuck” comes out, or “shit” comes out, or any other colorful, descriptive [terms] I may use comes out, I don’t feel the need to govern that, because I figure it would be hypercritical. That’s how I make my living, by cursing, so I’m not going to pretend not to curse in front of my kid. It’s actually wound up having this weird adverse effect where the kid doesn’t curse, we’ve never gotten a call from school where it’s like, “Your daughter said, ‘cock-smoker.’ Any comments? You want to reign it in at home?” She just doesn’t do it, and she never even said the title of the movie until last week. I was talking to my wife about I was going to go to do The Tonight Show to promote Zack and Miri, and my kid was at the desk in the room doing her homework right near us, and I just heard her pipe up with, “Make a Porno.” And I was like, “What did you say?” She was like, “that’s the whole movie, isn’t it? Zack and Miri Make a Porno – that’s the title.” I said, “Yeah, do you know what porno is?” And she said, “Yes, it’s what you do for a living.” [Laughs] That’s the God’s honest true story. So at that part, I was like, “My kid’s clever but stupid at the same time.”

IH: But even the ad on Saturday Night Live last night just said “Zack and Miri.”

KS: Yeah, somebody told me that. I wasn’t aware of that. I knew they were pulling together an ad for Monday Night Football – they sent me a trailer last week that just said “Zack and Miri,” because Monday Night Football wouldn’t let them call it “Zack and Miri Make a Porno” because why would you ever want to say “porno” in the midst of Monday Night Football when you could be saying “Viagra” and “erectile dysfunction” instead, or beer ads or any number of the other things that aren’t necessarily family friendly…but whatever. So I knew there was going to be an ad that didn’t say “Zack and Miri Make a Porno,” based on wanting to have an ad on Monday Night Football. I wasn’t aware that it ran on Saturday Night Live. I can’t imagine that Saturday Night Live was like, “You can’t say ‘Make a Porno.’” I mean, they say “sweaty balls” on the show; they’ve said a lot of things. So I don’t know if that was like a mishap or whatever, but somebody told me that today and I was like, “You’re fucking kidding me,” but I don’t think it’s NBC. I can’t imagine it being NBC and I can’t imagine that it’s the Weinstein Company trying to hide the title, because it’s fuckin’ out there at this point. It might have just been that they got the same spot that Monday Night Football is getting, but it is kind of strange. I just don’t find that term objectionable. Granted, I’m a little more liberal than most, but even if I was conservative, maybe I would object to the idea of porno, but having the word out in public just doesn’t frighten me, and if my kid did come up to me and say, “What’s porno?” in a way that she didn’t quite understand or she wanted more description or whatnot, I’d be like, “Look, a porno does not have Hannah Montana or fuckin’ Zack and Cody in it, so what do you give a shit?” Which she wouldn’t. My kid has no interest in anything but those programs, and we’d simply go like, “It’s a grown-up movie,” and if she wanted more information, “It’s a grown-up movie where the grown-ups take their clothes off and act real silly.” And she might be curious about that, but I don’t think she’d be heading to the Internet going, “Let’s find some porn.” She’s nine, she don’t care — most kids don’t. And I disagree with the argument some woman in Boston was saying: The drawings are going to catch a kid’s eye and then make the kid ask about porno. What parent can’t handle that question? If you can’t handle that question, I don’t think you’re a very good parent. I don’t consider myself a great parent, but I certainly know how to handle that question.

IH: Can you talk a little bit about casting Elizabeth [Banks]?

KS: Banks came to us not late in the game, but she was definitely like second or third cast. Of course, it all started with Seth [Rogen]. Originally, I wrote it for Rosario Dawson to play the role because we had just worked with her in Clerks 2 and I loved her a lot. We were going to start shooting in November — from November to the holidays, but Seth had just gotten off the promotional tour with Superbad and Knocked Up. He sent me an email that said, “I’ve always wanted to work with you. I don’t want to work with you under these conditions where I’m fuckin’ exhausted. All I want to do is lay on my couch, watch videogames, (and) get high for three months.” I was like, “I can’t argue with that. That sounds like a great life to me, so let’s move the shoot to January.” So we decided to shoot from January to March. Once we did that, we lost Rosario because, in the January quarter, she already was committed to Eagle Eye. So suddenly we were Miri-less. It left us at ground zero. So what we did was contact all the agencies to find out what actresses would be available from the January to March corridor. We got a full list of names and whittled that list down to six names of actresses who might not slap us once we handed them the script. Elizabeth Banks, alphabetically, was at the top of that list. So I’m talking to Seth at my place about this, that, and the other thing with regards to the movie, and I said, let’s deal with the Miri thing right now. Here’s the list of six names. Before I could finish pushing it over or finishing the sentence, Seth sees her name and says, “Elizabeth Banks. I love her. She was with us on 40-Year-Old Virgin, she was really fun to work with, she got really far in the Knocked Up auditions — she almost would have been the lead in Knocked Up, she got that close. I would love to have fake pretend sex with her in this movie.” So I said, “Right on.” She came over and read the script at my place, and then I sat and talked to her on my deck for an hour and instantly fell for her, and boom, I offered her the role. “Do you want to be in the flick? Seth wants you in the flick. I think you’re cool. Why don’t you be in the flick?” Best decision I probably made in regard to this flick, because man, she’s just a great actress. She’s hands down the best actress I’ve ever worked with. She just gives you so much. She completely feminized that role. I don’t know, in the hands of another actress, it might have just sounded like two dudes talking to each other, one of which doesn’t happen to have a dick. But she actually made Miri a living, breathing woman — like, a believable woman. She helped us avoid what I always felt was a major pitfall in this movie, which is” you make a movie called “Zack makes a Porno,” everyone’s all okay with it because guys like sex, so of course Zack wants to make a porno. You throw Miri in there and suddenly there’s that weird double-standard when it comes to sex in this country, and you’ve got the potential for people to be like, “She agreed to be in a porno? She agreed to fuck somebody for money? She’s a whore. She’s a slut.” You don’t want people turning on your character in the movie and shit like that. Banks was able to completely disarm that. That argument never came up. I haven’t seen that in print anywhere. I’m very proud of that fact because it means she did such a great job, people don’t see that as some negative. They don’t see her decision as some sort of pejorative. It’s keeping with who her character is and keeping with the story. She’s great, man. She acts when she’s acting, of course. When she’s talking, it’s wonderful. Even when she’s not talking, you’re just on her and she’s waiting to get to her next line while somebody off-camera is talking. She gives you so much to cut to. She’s always giving me something to play with. She’s like the best-kept secret in this business, but the secret’s out because this month she’s got W, she’s got Role Models coming out, she’s got a horror movie next month or something like that, so I guess now someone’s going to be able to put the name to the face. Everyone is going to know who Elizabeth Banks is.

IH: The timing couldn’t be better for the release of this movie, considering that the economy is in the toilet and they’re desperate for money…

KS: Let me tell you, I was so excited when the economy went in the toilet. Everyone else was despondent. I was like, this makes my movie plausible. You know? It does kind of work.

IH: Some people might be inspired by it…

KS: If this movie doesn’t work, I’m turning to porn, man, and nobody wants to see my fat ass on the screen, so I hope this movie works.

IH: Did you start with the fuzzy love story, or did you start out with “I want to make a movie about porn?”

KS: Ironically, for a movie this filthy and potentially funny if you find it funny, it started with the lovemaking scene. The first thing I started with was the title, which made me chuckle. The first thing that came to mind after the title was that sequence where they lie down to have sex but wind up making love instead. So everything extended outwards from there. I had to start it and finish it, but that was always the genesis for the flick. I just ladled in a bunch of dirty jokes.

IH: You’re doing a sci-fi comedy movie?

KS: Technically, it’s not announced. I was doing an interview with The Hollywood Reporter and he’s like, “What are you doing in the future?” And I’ve talked about doing a space comedy for years, but I reiterated that I’m going to do Red State next, and afterwards, down the road, I want to get to the space comedy movie. Suddenly, “he announces…” I didn’t announce shit. I’d been talking about it for years at this point. I feel it’s a little misleading because it’s not like we’re gearing up for it or something like that. It’s just something that I am heading towards.

IH: When does Red State start shooting?

KS: I have no idea. I’ve got to get some money together first. Nobody wants to finance a very bleak, uncommercial movie, which I can completely understand, particularly in this economy. It’s tough finding the money for it. Hopefully, we can start it in March-April, if we can find the cash.

IH: What about casting Brandon Routh?

KS: We were sitting around trying to figure out who would play Bobby Long, and I’d asked an actor friend of mine, who isn’t Ben Affleck or Jason Lee, if he wanted to be in it. I don’t want to give his name because it’s kind of a weird story. I asked him if he wanted to be in it to play this role. I told him it’s a Seth Rogen movie so people might actually see it this time around. “Why don’t you come out and do this role?” Initially, he said yes. Then he called back the next day and said, “Dude, you know, I don’t think I can do it.” I was like, “Why? What’s the matter?” He said, “Well, the movie’s got ‘porno’ in the title.” I was like, “You’re kidding me, dude. Are you serious?” And he’s like, “I’ve got a 16-year-old kid.” I was like, “I assure you, she knows what “porno” is.” So we were left without a Bobby Long and we were trying to figure out who could fill that role. Seth and I were sitting around talking about it and I was like, he should be salt-of-the-earth; he should be all-American, a Superman type, and he was like, “Like Brandon Routh,” and I was like, “Yeah, it’s like Brandon Routh.” So he said, “Let’s just ask Brandon Routh.” You just ask people and the worst they can say is no. Elizabeth is sitting in the room and she’s like, “You guys are talking about Superman?” We said, “Yeah, we were talking about him for Bobby Long.” And she said, “My agent represents him.” We said, “Oh, fuck. Can you get him a script?” So it happened that easily. We got him the script, he read it and liked it and came out. He did a great job, because it was a thankless role on the page. He was literally the straight-man, even though he was not straight in the movie. He was offering setups for others to knock it out of the park. He came in and found a way to play it that was kind of charming and funny. He played it kind of like this shy, henpecked husband. I thought he did a great job with it. People were like, “Can he be funny?” I think he can be funny.

IH: Was it nice to finally direct Superman?

KS: It’s the closest I’ll ever get. I never wanted to direct Superman. I only wrote it years and years ago. It’s the closest I’ll get to directing Superman, so it was kind of cool. There was one point where I said to him, “Don’t you have some kind of morals clause in your contract?” And he said, “Dude, this ain’t 1941. As long as I don’t play another superhero, Warner Bros. doesn’t give a shit.” I said, “Right on. Kiss that dude, now!”

IH: Seth said he wanted to work with you when he first came to Hollywood.

KS: He said that before he found out our films weren’t financially successful. I don’t think he would have said that today. He said that back in the day. I didn’t know that quote until I reached out to him. I’d seen him in 40-Year-Old Virgin and fell in love with him, and I immediately wanted to write for that guy. He reminded me of the way Bill Murray made me feel when I was a kid and saw Bill Murray movies. When I saw Stripes, I wanted to be John Winger. When I saw Ghostbusters, I wanted to be Peter Venkman. When I saw 40-Year-Old Virgin, even though I’m doing okay in life, I was like, I want to be Cal. That dude’s alright to me. Then I realized it wasn’t so much the role — I’m really attracted to this performer. This dude’s so convincing and so authentic, he makes me want to be the character he plays. So I was like, I gotta get him in my stuff. He would fit so perfectly in my stuff. I feel like he’s playing a co-starring role in this movie, so if I write him a lead, he can become super-famous and he’ll owe me forever and he’ll be like Affleck Version Two. It wasn’t completely altruistic in that way. By the time I finished the script, I started seeing billboards up all around town for Knocked Up, and he’s like front-and-center on the billboard, and I said, this motherfucker’s famous already. I’m never going to get this guy now. So I wrote him an e-mail where I said, “I know you can generate your own material. Judd will put you to work for the rest of your life. You obviously need no help in your career, but I wrote this script with you in mind for the lead. It’s called Zack and Miri Make a Porno. Can you at least give it a read and see if you like it?” He sent me an e-mail back within five minutes with a quick response that said, no bullshit, “When I first got to this business, an agent asked me what I wanted to do with my career and I said I wanted to be in a Kevin Smith movie, and that hasn’t changed. Please send me the script.” So I was like, “Cha-Ching!” Really, he’s responsible for the movie. If I hadn’t fallen so hard-core in love with him, I don’t think I would have written this.